Capitalism vs socialism

[Durka]

<split from "Israeli–Palestinian conflict" thread>

David, you see things so clearly...until you suggest the antidote.

"Putting pressure" on any government today is a totally bankrupt perspective.
These governments are all literally pro-genocide.

They are pro-genocide not fundamentally because they are sociopathic monsters (although this is true), but because they represent vast class forces whose geopolitical interests lie in the annihilation of the Palestinian population in Gaza, and the replacement of the current regime in Iran with one that is subservient to the interests of both the Zionist regime in Israel and, primarily, to those of US imperialism. Their aim is domination of the Middle East, not just for oil but because of its critical geostrategic relationship to the territory of Russia, and naval transport and global supply chains.

You have to start drawing lessons.
Mass protests of millions across the world..for over a year, and all these governments just ignore them, and instead (in the case of Biden) shoot them down with rubber bullets and defame them as "anti-Semitic"

Israel is being backed by US imperialism. Harris has made clear that she will support Israel to the hilt, even more than Biden (if that is possible).

If we keep trying to "put pressure' on them, we are the ones slowly dying like frogs in a pressure cooker as the temperature gradually but relentlessly climbs.

The only way to break out of the pressure cooker is to search for a political perspective that does not seek to pressure pro-genocide governments, but instead aims to overthrow them.

There you go again.
Sprouting more Russian imperialist propaganda.

[Magpietothemax]

You clearly don'"t have a clue what "Russian imperialist propaganda" even means.
Putin is a capitalist, and is completely hostile to any political perspective that calls for the abolition of capitalism.
I am calling for the abolition of capitalist governments everywhere, by the working class, including Putin's government in Russia.
Therefore, to suggest that I am "spouting Russian (imperialist) propaganda" is nonsense, and results either from
a) conscious deception
or b) (which I think in your case is the most likely explanation) complete ignorance about both what Putin represents in the scheme of global politics, and a complete failure to understand/acknoweldge what I have posted.

[stui magpie]

^
and who is going to run the show in your brave new worldwide socialist paradise?

I'd love you to outline how a new world socialist "government" would actually work.

[Durka]

You clearly don'"t have a clue what "Russian imperialist propaganda" even means.
Putin is a capitalist, and is completely hostile to any political perspective that calls for the abolition of capitalism.
I am calling for the abolition of capitalist governments everywhere, by the working class, including Putin's government in Russia.
Therefore, to suggest that I am "spouting Russian (imperialist) propaganda" is nonsense, and results either from
a) conscious deception
or b) (which I think in your case is the most likely explanation) complete ignorance about both what Putin represents in the scheme of global politics, and a complete failure to understand/acknoweldge what I have posted.

I don’t understand half of what you post. But, you don’t either. That’s why you won’t be able to give a coherent answer to the question that Stui asked above, other than to sprout more Russian imperialist propaganda.
PS. I did not refer to Putin. I referred to Russia.

[What'sinaname]

^
and who is going to run the show in your brave new worldwide socialist paradise?

I'd love you to outline how a new world socialist "government" would actually work.

The CMFEU probably

[Magpietothemax]

I don’t understand half of what you post. But, you don’t either. That’s why you won’t be able to give a coherent answer to the question that Stui asked above, other than to sprout more Russian imperialist propaganda.
PS. I did not refer to Putin. I referred to Russia.

Okay, so maybe don't argue with what you don't understand. Ask questions instead.

[Magpietothemax]

^
and who is going to run the show in your brave new worldwide socialist paradise?

I'd love you to outline how a new world socialist "government" would actually work.

Can''t say much because it is not on topic.
But the working class will run the economy.
It already does in a profound sense. The strike at Boeing in the US is sending shudders of fear through corporate America because Wall st profits and global supply chains, not to mention the US war machine and weaponry for Israel and Ukraine, is being threatened by the strike of one small section of the working class.

The working class has the social power to paralyse the entire capitalist economy and bring the capitalist class to its knees, if it acted with a co-ordinated international understanding of its historical role: to seize political power, and reorganise the economy on the basis of social need, not profit.

IF the capitalists did not exist, the working class would continue to operate the economy seamlessly. No stockholder, no CEO, plays any role whatsoever in the production process.

Therefore, the working class - led by its own political party - will "run the show". The enormous developments in technology, international communications, etc have made it easy for workers internationally to co-ordinate production processes at a global level.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2000/03/corr-m04.html

[stui magpie]

You're going to need to provide more detail, because that does not make one iota of sense. If the "working class" rule, who are the workers? Where do they work? What happens to all the wealthy people? If there are no countries and the world is "ruled" by a working class elected government (see CFMEU) it sounds like a recipe for disaster. How do these working class heroes manage the outliers like the religious zealot and dictatorships?

Oh, and I read the linked article. Nope, idealistic with lots of IF's but there's no blueprint there.

[SLORT]

People seemingly mistake socialism for communism. Most of what had value within modern western society was built by "socialist values". Hell, even the liberal party was 100% behind trade tariffs under Menzies as a way of keeping Australian businesses viable at every level, small and large. The issue with society now is the rush to the bottom caused by unprotected markets that are being eaten alive by multinational conglomerates such as Blackrock. Sharemarkets and their need for perpetual growth and profit are the lever by which this is happening. Democracy is failing everywhere because of this constant pressure. Steps that could be taken were already discovered and laid out by many of the original economic thinkers. We don't need full-blown one person one wage (which btw has never been an aspect of any communist government ever). We just need the right incentives that keep people believing that the system is as fair as it can be. Unlike what we have now where we have growing serfdom by stealth. Some possible answers ~ Georgism (one tax system), cooperatives (such as Mondragon), alternative currency with demurrage (Silvio Gesell).

[stui magpie]

The more I think about this, in the absence of hard detail from MTTM, there is just no way I can see this worldwide Marxist society happening. Not a snowballs chance in hell.

The whole concept seems based on a more than century old view of population demographics where people neatly fitted into 1 of 2 categories, working class or ruling class. That just doesn't fit anymore with a burgeoning middle class in Western society and doesn't even consider half the worlds population that lives in China, India and Indonesia or that most of the "working class" won't even join a trade union let alone go along with this concept.

Happy for MTTM to try to educate me, but it's about as likely to happen as Humans settling on Saturn.

[SLORT]

Another example of privatization / capitalism failing ~

https://www.theage.com.au/national/vict ... 5kmli.html

"Energy giant AusNet plans to slug gas customers an extra $70 million to compensate for the growing number of Victorian customers switching to electricity.

AusNet is proposing to charge residential customers an average of $49 per year more until mid-2028 because fewer customers are using gas.

Under a five-year agreement with the Australian Energy Regulator (AER), AusNet can claw back $105 million from gas customers as compensation for the state’s push to switch households from gas to electricity.

However, AusNet is taking the unprecedented step of seeking to increase that to $175 million.

It argues that government policies such as a ban on new gas connections in dwellings had “materially changed” its operating environment."

So we're sold the bullshit narrative of the private efficiency versus public ownership, and now we have to pay them when their own models for profit(eering) fail. Far better to pay once than be locked into a legal loophole that sees us forever subsidize companies that won't be allowed to fail. Socialism when it's their arse in the fire, capitalism when it's ours.