Israeli–Palestinian conflict

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David
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Re: Israeli–Palestinian conflict

Post by David »

Hamas may well not want a two-state solution – which is why it would make sense for Israel to try to sideline Hamas and other extremists and make a deal with their rivals, the Palestinian Authority, who do want a two-state solution. Why are they openly refusing to? Because Netanyahu doesn't want one either (and is on record admitting as much).

People say this situation is complex, but it really isn't. There's a territory inhabited by two peoples – both with historical claims to the land, but one more recently dispossessed and colonised by the other. Among Israelis and Palestinians alike, there are moderates who are willing to share the land and live side by side (i.e. some parts of the Israeli opposition and the Palestinian Authority), and extremists who want it all to themselves, up to and including by exterminating the other side (i.e. Hamas and Likud, and the even more extreme smaller groups sitting further to their right).

At the moment, in Israel and Gaza alike, it's the extremists who are in charge. "From the river to the sea" is the policy of Netanyahu and his allies in government every bit as much as it's the policy of Hamas. And the more extreme one side gets, the stronger it makes extremists on the other side, who point to the other side's violence as evidence that their own moderates are toothless and ineffective. Thus the worst elements of both sides get even stronger and those who would extend the olive branch get even further sidelined. That's where we are now.

We've seen this script plenty of times through human history and in all parts of the world, and it always requires convincing people that the other side is a special kind of evil that can't be reasoned with. And that begins by situating the evil not just in the extremists, but in the population as a whole – which is what you're doing when you point to an election from twenty years ago to suggests that all Palestinians are opposed to peace. This is the logic of genocide.

Some more facts about the 2006 election (and your example of Australia, albeit under a different electoral system that skews away from major party primary votes, only goes to show how it's possible to take government in a country without majority support for a given political party):
• Hamas campaigned under the name of the "Change and Reform" party, mostly positioning themselves as an antidote to longstanding Fatah corruption. They could have called themselves anything – I think the fact they went for such a benign name suggests that they knew they would struggle to win by presenting themselves as militant crusaders or ideologues.
• We know people aren't generally single-issue voters but will choose the major party they get behind for all sorts of reasons. An exit poll quoted on Wikipedia gives some indication of voters' sentiment at the time and what issues they considered important:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Pale ... Exit_polls
An exit poll conducted by Near East Consulting on 15 February 2006 on voters participating in the 2006 PA elections revealed the following responses to major concerns:

Support for a Peace Agreement with Israel: 79.5% in support; 15.5% in opposition
Should Hamas change its policies regarding Israel: Yes – 75.2%; No – 24.8%
Under Hamas corruption will decrease: Yes – 78.1%; No – 21.9%
Under Hamas internal security will improve: Yes – 67.8%; No – 32.2%
Hamas government priorities: 1) Combatting corruption; 2) Ending security chaos; 3) Solving poverty/unemployment
Support for Hamas' impact on the national interest: Positive – 66.7&; Negative - 28.5%
Support for a national unity government?: Yes – 81.4%; no – 18.6%
Rejection of Fatah's decision not to join a national unity government: Yes – 72.5%; No – 27.5%
Satisfaction with election results: 64.2% satisfied; 35.8% dissatisfied
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Re: Israeli–Palestinian conflict

Post by think positive »

61 pages, gees who thought this would still be going on 60 pages ago?
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Re: Israeli–Palestinian conflict

Post by David »

Pretty much everyone, I suspect :(
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Re: Israeli–Palestinian conflict

Post by Durka »

David wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 3:36 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Pale ... Exit_polls
An exit poll conducted by Near East Consulting on 15 February 2006 on voters participating in the 2006 PA elections revealed the following responses to major concerns:

Support for a Peace Agreement with Israel: 79.5% in support; 15.5% in opposition
Should Hamas change its policies regarding Israel: Yes – 75.2%; No – 24.8%
Under Hamas corruption will decrease: Yes – 78.1%; No – 21.9%
Under Hamas internal security will improve: Yes – 67.8%; No – 32.2%
Hamas government priorities: 1) Combatting corruption; 2) Ending security chaos; 3) Solving poverty/unemployment
Support for Hamas' impact on the national interest: Positive – 66.7&; Negative - 28.5%
Support for a national unity government?: Yes – 81.4%; no – 18.6%
Rejection of Fatah's decision not to join a national unity government: Yes – 72.5%; No – 27.5%
Satisfaction with election results: 64.2% satisfied; 35.8% dissatisfied
That exit poll doesn't seem right.

44% voted for Hamas, whose policy was then, and is now, to exterminate Israel, despite the exit poll stating that:

Support for a Peace Agreement with Israel: 79.5% in support; 15.5% in opposition
Should Hamas change its policies regarding Israel: Yes – 75.2%; No – 24.8%

If I was a cynical person I may think that they were just making it up as they were going along.
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Re: Israeli–Palestinian conflict

Post by Jezza »

think positive wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 3:39 pm 61 pages, gees who thought this would still be going on 60 pages ago?
It’s been going on for 75 years :shock:
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Re: Israeli–Palestinian conflict

Post by Durka »

Jezza wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 5:14 pm
think positive wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 3:39 pm 61 pages, gees who thought this would still be going on 60 pages ago?
It’s been going on for 75 years :shock:
Thousands of years.
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Re: Israeli–Palestinian conflict

Post by Magpietothemax »

IDF used incendiary bombs in attack on tents near Al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital in Central Gaza.
There were images spread on social media showing patients connected to IV being burned alive.
There was an image of a young boy watching the tent his father was in being incinerated that made me break down:

<mod warning – link below contains footage that may be distressing>
https://x.com/AdameMedia/status/1845606311032926395

US now sending 100 troops to Israel along with extra advanced anti missile protection, and warning Iran that should one American soldier die, this would mean a declaration of war by the US against Iran.

Netanyahu and Biden now openly conspiring, in front of the whole world, to launch a "significant attack" on Iran, which will engulf the entire region in a blood bath, where US imperialism will be using every weapon of mass destruction in its arsenal to assist Israel in its drive to obliterate Iran and impose a "new order" in the Middle East.

War in Ukraine is going badly for US imperialism, Russia is expanding its positions on every front.

US is now targeting Iran, which it sees as an annoying obstacle because of its support to Russia, not just militarily but also in providing military resistance to US imperialist proxies in Syria, and allowing Russia to maintain a stronghold there.

US reasons that once Iran is "neutralised", Russia will be a much easier prey to kill.

Time to stop tinkering around the edges.

There is no 'two state solution', no 'reasonable ceasefire' possible in the Middle East.

There is no negotiated settlement for the war in Ukraine.

Time to wake up that half measures are hopeless.

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Re: Israeli–Palestinian conflict

Post by think positive »

Durka wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 5:36 pm
Jezza wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 5:14 pm
think positive wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 3:39 pm 61 pages, gees who thought this would still be going on 60 pages ago?
It’s been going on for 75 years :shock:
Thousands of years.
i clearly meant this particular saga relating to the kidnapping
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Re: Israeli–Palestinian conflict

Post by Durka »

The best Whack A Mole team in the world, the IDF, have whacked another big one.
Yahwa Sinwar is no more.
Hamas' leader, is now its former leader.
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Re: Israeli–Palestinian conflict

Post by stui magpie »

That's pretty much all of Hamas leadership knocked out and a fair chunk of Hezbollah.

I really hope there is a way out of this whole clustercluck that ends with a legitimate 2 state solution, but a few Israeli and Iranian leaders may have to meet the same end before that can happen.
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Re: Israeli–Palestinian conflict

Post by What'sinaname »

stui magpie wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2024 5:11 pm That's pretty much all of Hamas leadership knocked out and a fair chunk of Hezbollah.

I really hope there is a way out of this whole **** that ends with a legitimate 2 state solution, but a few Israeli and Iranian leaders may have to meet the same end before that can happen.
Good. It means this uprising stops for at least a generation. That's the way these suckholes work. They are beaten into oblivion and then spends years growing and plotting. They then execute some sort of terrorist attack and are beaten to oblivion.

Classic rinse and repeat.
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Re: Israeli–Palestinian conflict

Post by Magpietothemax »

^ Biden, Scholz, Macron, Starmer, Albanese, Meloni....have all hailed the murder of Sinwar.
Because that is what it is, murder.

The killing of Sinwar is one particular result of a criminal imperialist backed war aimed at exterminating/ejecting the population of Gaza, and the annexation by Israel of territories that it has illegally occupied since 1967.

Israel is acting with the full backing of world imperialism.

The psychopathic war criminals who currently lead western so called "democratic" governments (Biden, Starmer, Macron, Meloni and our own Albanese) all celebrated the death of Sinwar, just as they revelled in the deaths of other Hamas and Hezbollah political leaders assassinated by Israel over the last month.

Just as they admired and fully endorsed the Netanyahu fascist government's act of state terrorism when it triggered the detonation of every day electronic devices throughout Lebanon.

Whatever the Nuremberg style war criminals in Washington, London, Paris, Berlin, Rome and Canberra might think, Hamas and Hezbollah are both political movements which have been elected into positions of political leadership.

So, draw the necessary conclusions. The political leaders of "Western democracy" are embracing genocide, terrorism and political assassination as legitimate tools of foreign policy.

These are the methods of Hitler, and Stalin.

https://x.com/DavidNorthWSWS/status/1847156950129430807
Last edited by Magpietothemax on Sat Oct 19, 2024 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Israeli–Palestinian conflict

Post by Magpietothemax »

What'sinaname wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 6:12 pm

Good. It means this uprising stops for at least a generation. That's the way these suckholes work. They are beaten into oblivion and then spends years growing and plotting. They then execute some sort of terrorist attack and are beaten to oblivion.

Classic rinse and repeat.
One of the most ridiculous posts i have seen here for a while.

The obvious racist and pro Zionist overtones are disgusting.

But - what I wish to emphasize here - the content is absurd.

How can any sane person think that somehow things will revert back to the pre genocide situation, and it will just be "rinse and repeat"?

The genocide in Gaza is a historical inflection point, and nothing will be the same in the Middle East ever again.
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Re: Israeli–Palestinian conflict

Post by What'sinaname »

You just have it arse about as to who's doing the oppressing.

Hamas are the oppressors. Israel is doing the people the Gaza a favour in smashing Hamas.
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Re: Israeli–Palestinian conflict

Post by David »

Apart from the brief moment of seeing Netanyahu crowing about it in the aftermath and wishing it had happened to him, I feel pretty ambivalent about Sinwar's death. You live by the sword, you die by the sword; and as with Nasrallah, he had a lot of blood on his hands (in the latter's case, including many Syrians during the civil war, a far greater crime in terms of mass human suffering than anything either of them have accomplished in Israel). I would far prefer someone like him be killed as retribution for the October 7 attacks than a single civilian in Gaza.

But it's neither justice – you can't kill your way there – nor, necessarily, any kind of turning point, as far as I can tell. Hamas are fighting on without him, and the IDF video of Sinwar's death is apparently already being circulated by his supporters as evidence of his heroism:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/ ... and-beyond

Here's some analysis of why this likely isn't a major setback for Hamas:

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/y ... rth-cronin
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